Este es una de las respuestas:
Had an old friend come over tonight with some of his horns to compare with mine. He had a 118,XXX VI alto with the long bow (extended higher up the body). The low notes on this horn came out loud and clear, and soft and clear; no gurgle whatsoever. We compared the bow to my 51,XXX SBA alto, which it turns out, had the shorter bow (appears almost even in length up the body and bell; a tad higher up the body). My SBA is a gurgler on low B; especially when played soft. I've reduced this gurgle with an oval brass baffle epoxied to the bottom of the bow to reduce its diameter, and eliminated it finally with a well-matched mouthpiece (SR Tech Legend 85). My friend tried my SBA with his mouthpiece (a current production Meyer) and had a bit of trouble with low B, finding that gurgle. I didn't use my chromatic tuner to check the intonation of his VI down low, but will next time. I still preferred my SBA overall, but it sure would be nice to be able to use more modern mouthpieces and hit those low notes with confidence.
Y esta es muy interesante:
Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:28 am Post subject: Low Register "Gurgle" on Selmer Mark VII Alto
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I own a Selmer Mark VII Alto that "gurgles" in the lower register (low C and below). I've had this problem since the horn was brand-new. I realize that leaks can cause this, but I've had the horn repadded and checked for leaks - still, the problem exists.
To some extend, I can control this problem with embouchure, but even with a very relaxed, open embouchure, I still experience "bubbling" while sustaining these low register notes. I recently tried playing my friend's Yamaha YS-52 Alto and experienced NO "gurgling" whatsoever. My friend tried out my Mark VII Alto and experienced the same problem so I don't believe embouchure or technique are the culprit.
I've tried the old "wine-cork-in-the-bell" trick which helped a little, but didn't "fix" the problem. I've also read that the placement of the mouthpiece on the neck can cause low-note "gurgle". Pushing my Selmer S-80 C* in further only makes the horn play too sharp and doesn't eliminate the low-note "gurgle" It's been suggested that this might be caused by a defect in my horn's neck and that a different neck piece might "fix" this problem.
Can anyone out there comment on this?
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SelmerSaksMan
Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 287
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:49 am Post subject:
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Try a stiffer reed or a bigger tip m/p
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Chicago66
Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 2
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:01 am Post subject:
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SelmerSaksMan wrote:
Try a stiffer reed or a bigger tip m/p
Thanks for the advice.
Right now, I generally use a Selmer S-80 C* with Rico Royal 2.5 or 3 reeds. I also occasionally use a Meyer 6M for more a cutting, jazzy sound. Can you suggest a different mouthpiece and/or reed? I'm not into the harsh-buzzy sound of metal mouthpieces, so I'd like to stay away from them.
What I like about my Selmer Mark VII Alto, is it's dark, rich sound quality so I don't want a solution to this problem that would jeoparize that sound.
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Saxdaddy
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 344
Location: Effingham IL
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:16 pm Post subject:
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Bring it to another shop, for a second opinion.
It really sounds like a leak. The leak could be anywhere, might even be in the neck tenon/socket, around a octave tube, in the bell to body conection. Sounds like you need another tech, this should have been found in the play test.
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SelmerSaksMan
Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 287
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:49 pm Post subject:
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If the tech was competant and there are no leaks, try the solist D or E, I beleive they go for 150, not sure. As for reeds, try a vandoren v12 3, vandoren is usually half a strength harder than ricos.
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MusicMedic
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 320
Location: North Carolina
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:26 pm Post subject:
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I agree, it sounds like a leak. You might take it to a tech and have them check the areas that Saxdaddy mentioned.
If it's not a leak, try some other mouthpieces. I find that changing mouthpieces can reduce a problem like that until it's barely noticeable.
If you still have a problem, it might be acoustical. The 'wine cork in the bell' routine is a way of testing that but that's all really. Placement of the cork in the bow is critical. So, if the wine cork helped you, might have found a solution. I find that instruments that have the gurgle almost never clear up from just dropping something in the bell. The trick is finding the location place the obstruction.
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Kellyp(BC)
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
Location: Kelowna BC, Can
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:06 pm Post subject:
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I had a Jupiter alto with the gurgle...( I think it was a Jupiter ) and the solution was a brass shape ( kind of like a big piece of a pasta style...it was supplied by the manufacturer) soldered in the bow. It disturbs the air flow path thru the horn and stops the gurgle. We attached it to a thin rod with hot glue as I recall and moved it around till the gurgle disappeared. Then soft soldered it in place.
Another customer had a Mark 6...same problem. Got him to relax his embouchure so his MP went farther on and it cleared up. I guess the bore of his MP was so mismatched to his horn that it was causing an air flow disturbance at the top of the horn. That should have caused some tuning problems too but did not know that at the time. Too much to know but the learning part is fascinating!
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CamTheCat
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:09 pm Post subject:
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I recently discovered that selmer sax's go best with a small bore mouthpiece.
While in some saxs this 'gurgle' can be mechanicaly remedied, if the problem is the actuall horn itself, then it's just 'one of those horns'. There are bad selmer MK VII's and VII's. The problem may actually be in the design of t-h-a-t exact horn. Try swapping out the necks - that's a good idea. It could be that.
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budice007
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 19
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:13 am Post subject:
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I have a buffet tenor that gurgles on low D and somewhat with low E. The only thing I have tried that eliminates it is sort of interesting. I put a rag in the bell, practice long tones in the low register, and after removing the rag I've overcome the gurgle!. After a few minutes it comes back... Anyways the horn is leak free, silicon on the body joints, guardalas ponzols sr techs, links etc all tried and even a ponzol neck but not one of these elements eliminates the gurgle. I've not had the problem on other horns.
Joel
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Kellyp(BC)
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
Location: Kelowna BC, Can
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:31 am Post subject:
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Hey Cam
How do you measure the mp bore?
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budice007
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 19
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:01 am Post subject:
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The pasta style story is interesting, Kellyp(BC). It's the one thing I haven't extensively tried. Would you mind going into a bit more detail about it? Thanks
Joel
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Kellyp(BC)
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
Location: Kelowna BC, Can
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:19 pm Post subject:
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Joel
As I recall it was a disc of brass maybe 1.25" in diameter that had been folded, leaving a shape like a shell pasta? This was positioned in the bell/bow in a location dtermined by trial and error. I will see if the other music store still has one. Give me an email and I will do more follow up.
Kellyp@silk.net
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werkinsnake
Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 361
Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:51 am Post subject:
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The baffle in the bow idea is great. I have a 1923 CONN that gurgled on low C and B. The problem was fixed by putting a smashed quarter (compliments of the local railroad) into the bow of the sax. It was enough to get rid of the gurgle. But placement is crucial. I figured out where the best spot was and then removed the low C key to get some epoxy underneath it. Once it dried, the notes played and sounded great. Since then, I've done a similiar repair on a Yamaha 23 alto. Had the same problem with the low B and C. This time I used a part of an Altoids container which I cut to fit right into the bow. I figured out the placement and glued it in. As far as shape of the baffle goes, I guess that's trial and error. Get a piece of metal that is easy to bend so that you can experiment. Figure out what works best and glue it in.
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tubbycub
Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 243
Location: Singapore
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:56 am Post subject:
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I have a similar problem on my mark 7 alto. I had thrown a wine bottle cork into the bell and the low notes played fine. But do I have to live with this?
All these mentioning of the metal baffles, does anyone have pics to demonstrate how they are attached to the horn?
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werkinsnake
Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 361
Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:39 am Post subject:
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Hey tubbycub, I don't think I'll be able to take a picture of my actual horn (the inside would be too dark to take a pic of the baffle). But if you send me your e-mail address, I can make a simple picture using paintbrush that pretty much demonstrates how to do it. It's really simple actually.
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pknight
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 478
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:21 am Post subject:
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Werkinsnake,
Are you able to put the drawing/painting on a web site and post a link to it here? I think that this is a farily common problem, and lots of folks would appreciate seeing what you have done.
If not, please email me a copy using the email button below this message.
Thanks.
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werkinsnake
Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 361
Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:16 pm Post subject:
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Hey Everyone, I just finished the picture of this repair. I'm sorry, but I do not have a website to post this picture on...yet. If anyone wants a copy of the picture, just e-mail me. I will attempt to get the picture to you on the same day that you want it. Hope that the picture is helpful for you pknight.
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tubbycub
Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 243
Location: Singapore
Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject:
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werkinsnake, here's my email address tugscub@hotmail.com
Thanks!
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werkinsnake
Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 361
Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:38 am Post subject:
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Hey guys, I've sent out about 5 of these already. Tell me how it worked out for you in this thread. Thanks.
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Kellyp(BC)
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
Location: Kelowna BC, Can
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject:
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Yo werkinsnake
I would like a copy of your solution too please
kellyp@silk.net
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wind_mill
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 189
Location: Oregon
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:21 pm Post subject:
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I "third" Saxdaddy's advice. Sounds like the symptom of a leak somewhere. You may want to find a tech who'll check the spots already mentioned. If none of the pads are leaking, you could still have a leak in the bell-to-body seam, or in the neck tenon/socket interface, or even in the cork under the mouthpiece.
Inner surface of bell-body seam can be lightly coated with a household silicone cream for waterproofing. Tenon/receiver interface can be checked for out-of-roundness or looseness or air leaking out the slit under the neck screw. And while tech is at it, you could make sure he or she looks closely at the pads that are sprung closed--sometimes they get overlooked-- even a pinhole leak on a palm-key pad can cause what you're experiencing.
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wind_mill
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 189
Location: Oregon
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:26 pm Post subject:
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Oh yeah, one other little thing, probably not applicable here, but just FYI. When fingering low C#, B, and Bb, you'll get a leak under the otherwise-closed G# pad if the adjustment screw on the F# key isn't in far enough.
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shmuelyosef
Joined: 31 Mar 2003
Posts: 671
Location: SF Bay, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:29 am Post subject:
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Am I the only one for whom this 'baffle in the bow' thing sounds crazy? Since many people play these horns without this problem, doesn't it seem obvious that it has to be a setup problem. I have seen lots of things (most of them leaks) that make a horn unstable in the lower registers.
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werkinsnake
Joined: 22 Jul 2003
Posts: 361
Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:05 am Post subject:
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shmuelyosef wrote:
Am I the only one for whom this 'baffle in the bow' thing sounds crazy? Since many people play these horns without this problem, doesn't it seem obvious that it has to be a setup problem. I have seen lots of things (most of them leaks) that make a horn unstable in the lower registers.
I agree with you completely shmuelyosef, leaks will often be the problem, however there are times where nothing will fix the low B and C. This bow has helped out 3 horns (that I personally repaired) that were in this situation. One of the horns was my 1923 CONN alto. I checked every pad for leaks, sent it out for another tech to take a look at it, I even tried different mouthpiece and reed combos. Nothing worked. I posted this problem in the CONN section of this forum, and somebody gave me the idea for the baffle. After making one, I realized that it worked wonders. I then did the same repair for a YAS-23, and a Martin Alto. Both of these horns were in good repair, but gurgled on low C and B. It's a bow design flaw apparently. The bow is too big and the notes gurgle. Get your horn checked for leaks first, but if everything seems fine, go with the baffle.
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Gordon (NZ)
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 1483
Location: New Zealand
Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:48 am Post subject:
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In all the saxes I have play tested after servicing, there is only one that had low B burble. I eventually took it to a player far more accomplished than myself, and he could not make it burble. It SEEMS the problem was largely that I had practised a burbling embouchure (for diagnostic reasons) so conscientiously, that such an embouchure had become firmly entrenched.
However I acknowledge that the bend in the sax must have the potential for peculiar acoustic effects. The bore of the instrument should be a gradual taper, the EFFECTIVE bore being the cross sectional area.
Consider going for a journey down the bore of a sax..... The bore gradually increases until we get to the bend, at which time, SUDDENLY, before we actually start turning to negotiate the bend, the cross-sectional area approximately doubles. To me, it is amazing that the designers get away with a 180 degree bend at all. There must surely be compromises made in order to get away with it, and some manufacturers have almost certainly got it wrong at times.
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Kellyp(BC)
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 39
Location: Kelowna BC, Can
Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:07 pm Post subject:
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This burble problem first arose for me working on a student horn that had been dropped. It came back twice complaining of the burble, both the student and the teacher, an accomplished player, could make it happen. I could not. I lost a repair contract over this and belive me I checked and sealed everything I could. The second time was with a Mark 6 alto, old timer playing, had to leave quite a bit of neck showing to get in tune with the seniors home pianos. Push the neck on, loosen the embouchure and away it went. He was a bit too old and cranky to tell to correct his embouchure! the point here is that air support,wind stream etc CAN affect the low note stability problem. The third time was with Jupiter?,Amati? altos that a local store brought in. After messing about and then talking to the manufacturer THEY sent the "pasta shell" to place in the bow. Someone in the design team knew enough about acoustical physics to know the solution. I submit that the low burble instability is not the same as the lowCBBb "wa-wa" that a leaky horn or too tight an embouchure ( like my clarinet chops) will produce.
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tubbycub
Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 243<br /